Posts by Sola Scriptura

62

Explanation for the generation in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32

by alice.in.wonderland in

i see quite a bit of inquiry about the generation in matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. in every scripture in the gospels, the term generation is referring to a wicked generation except for matthew 24:34, mark 13:30 and luke 21:32. .

then as an answer to him some of the scribes and pharisees said: teacher, we want to see a sign from you.

in reply he said to them: a wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of jonah the prophet.

Sola Scriptura

To Ultimate Reality:

Your 163 post is argued very well. Thanks!
Book Marking for future reference...
sincerely
Sola Scriptura
---
‘Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?’
-THE WATCHTOWER ? SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 page 11

28

Interesting quote on leadership - what do you think re: the Governing Body?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

today i read a newspaper columnist who wrote something that caught my attention:.

"...obedience is a natural response to effective leadership, and this is true regardless of whether the people being led are adults or children.".

now, think about the gb.. virtually every wt "study edition" contains at least one, if not several, reminders about how we should "obey the gb".. dozens of the songs in the new song book extol how worthy of obedience & devotion the gb is.. each assembly & convention features dozens of reminders on how important it is to be obedient & submissive to the gb.. service meeting parts routinely offer "loving reminders" of how jws should obey the gb re: conventions, literature, donations, etc.. .

Sola Scriptura

Mad Sweeney said:

Effective Leadership & consistent Blind Obedience are the main ingredients for "Destructive Cults" is an untrue premise and therefore any conclusion based upon such false reasoning is faulty.

ef·fec·tive
–adjective

1. adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result
lead·er·ship

–noun

1. the position or function of a leader: He managed to maintain his leadership of the party despite heavy opposition.

2. ability to lead: She displayed leadership potential.

3. an act or instance of leading; guidance; direction: They prospered under his leadership.

4. the leaders of a group: The union leadership agreed to arbitrate.
---

Semantically speaking, "Effective Leaders" can be either good or evil. They can be either constructive or destructive (especially if the goal of the group he leads is one of destruction).

Based on the above definitions the following people were "Effective Leaders" at one time:

Charles Taze Russell
Theodore Roosevelt
Adolf Hitler
Jesus Christ
Osama bin Laden

The common denominator is: Many "voluntarily" followed these charismatic leaders. The Court of Public Opinion ultimately gets to decide if their Leadership was GOOD or EVIL.

---

sir82 said:

I think you may be missing the point, and furthermore I disagree (so there! )

I Googled the full article you were referencing (I believe here). I read it in full and now see the "spirit" of what you were getting at. ( Sorry, I was getting too caught up in semantics )

So my revised comment to you is:
I believe you bring up very good points to ponder. Time will tell what path this current GB will take to avoid outcome #2. I believe they have already started the process, with the flurry of changes we have recently seen. But will they see it to completion? Or will they be afraid of disappointing "The Ole Faithful" with too much change too quick? Stay tuned...

However, I disagree with you on calling JWs a "Destructive cult". New Religious Movement (NRM) is more neutral. "Scholars studying the sociology of religion have almost unanimously adopted this term as a neutral alternative to the word "cult". (So back at you! )

Much respect
---
Sola Scriptura

‘Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?’
-THE WATCHTOWER ? SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 page 11

28

Interesting quote on leadership - what do you think re: the Governing Body?

by sir82 in

jw
friends

today i read a newspaper columnist who wrote something that caught my attention:.

"...obedience is a natural response to effective leadership, and this is true regardless of whether the people being led are adults or children.".

now, think about the gb.. virtually every wt "study edition" contains at least one, if not several, reminders about how we should "obey the gb".. dozens of the songs in the new song book extol how worthy of obedience & devotion the gb is.. each assembly & convention features dozens of reminders on how important it is to be obedient & submissive to the gb.. service meeting parts routinely offer "loving reminders" of how jws should obey the gb re: conventions, literature, donations, etc.. .

Sola Scriptura

sir82 said:

Yet the people are not obedient (if they were, would they need so many reminders?).

snowbird said:

No, they're not effective.

onemore said:

I once asked my wife, what will make you leave the organization? She responded, “I would “consider” leaving the org. if I see that the Governing Body I demanding more obedience and submission to their leadership”.

So why do many on this board consider JWs a "Destructive Cult" instead of a "New Religious Movement"?

Effective Leadership & consistent Blind Obedience are the main ingredients for "Destructive Cults".
Most Elders here, know only to well, that the "avg" JW is far from being consistently obedient.

JWs started and continue to be a "New Religious Movement" of "Apostates" from other religions and their children. The GB will never completely control us, no matter how it looks to outsiders.

So my answer to the original question of:
What do you think of the GB's leadership abilities? Are they "effective"?

I believe their collective leadership is both adequate and effective for keeping a multi-racial, multi-cultural 7 million plus worldwide membership going strong. I believe they can do much better! But it's easier for me to be a critic than to walk a mile in their shoes.
---
Sola Scriptura

‘Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?’
-THE WATCHTOWER ? SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 page 11

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To truthseekeriam:

you said:

We were treated like crap by the elders from that point on...

No, they didn't give us names, but the PO told us they were told to stay away and being that they all did, I'm guessing he was telling the truth.

Even if Ted "The Boss" Jaracz, told your PO himself to "treat you like crap", he should of refused. Based on James 4:17 the PO and the rest of the Elders who followed him sinned.

The They Told Us To Do It™ excuse doesn't cut it in God's eyes. You did the "Right" thing. They did not. Jehovah knows the difference, and He will judge them accordingly when the time comes.

Any Elder who is "ordered" to violate James 4:17 should either respectfully refuse or resign (If we run out of Elders, so be it). A TRUE Christian Man should never simply "follow" orders that purposely result in the harm of others. Period.
---
Sola Scriptura

'A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it'
- Martin Luther

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To wobble:

you said:

I see you have not answered my questions as to why Jehovah allowed abuse in the past, and why He has not bothered to make sure preventive measures are in place NOW to protect the little ones and the vulnerable

I won't presumptuously speak for Jehovah (As some have had the habit of doing). But, in my opinion, I believe while we "Wait" on him to fix and heal the entire world, he expects, if not demands all Christians to be proactive in discerning and subsequently doing the right thing.

James 4:17 (Contemporary English Version)

"If you don't do what you know is right, you have sinned."

Too many Elders take the easy way out by invoking the generic JW Phrase: "Wait on Jehovah". In some situations there really is nothing else one can do. But most times, if one took the time to think outside of the box, a simple solution for a complex problem might present itself.

Elders, (with basic common sense), who slavishly apply the "Two Witness" rule to mean, “Two eye witnesses must ALWAYS be present at a rape of a child before they can DO anything”, are Sinning. Period.

Elders that have the unfortunate skill set of Marking and Ostracizing those who they simple SUSPECT of doing ANYTHING they don’t care for, surely can do the same to those who really deserve it.

To Conscientious Lurking Elders:
Click here for more information on things YOU CAN do when your hands are tied from Dfing a slick lying Child Abuser who you FEEL is guilty.
---
Much respect to all.
Sola Scriptura

“I made an ass of myself.”- J. F. Rutherford
The Watchtower, October 1, 1984, page 24 (footnote)

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Mary:

You said:

You are correct in both respects.

Awesome! I'm glad we could agree on something.

Yes, the spirit of many of the laws would have still been practiced, but certainly not to the Letter of the Law that you are implying.

I never implied the Letter of the Old Law should be practiced by Christians. I have directly stated the opposite on many occasions.

Notice what I said above (taken from my 37th post):

"While Christians are not under the "Mosaic Law", many of the underlying principles in the O.T. are encouraged to be used in the Modern Christian Congregation.

This is where discernment and willingness to be progressive about certain Congregation Policies come into play."

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To wobble:

Please Re-Read What I said.
I think you are missing my point.

Respectfully,
Sola

---

To Titus:

You said:

BTW, I too appreciate your kind manner.

Thank you.

Sola, you are trying to explain something to insincere people.

I've been following this board for years and I feel, although some are bitter and insincere, many on here are genuinely honest and hurt from injustices done to them by so called respected Leaders from the JW world. (This is Fact not Fiction).

I will not judge between who is being insincere and who is not. I will initially take everyones story, question or statement at face value. God thru Christ as well as the Court of Public Opinion will judge if their sincerity has the ring of Truth.

As I stated on another thread here:

I'm not here to score a touch down for "Team JW".

I'm here to Defend & Learn "Truth". No one on this planet has ALL of the answers.

Philippians 4:5(The Message)

Make it as clear as you can to all you meet that you're on their side, working with them and not against them.

Philippians 4:5 (New Living Translation)

Let everyone see that you are considerate in all you do.

Philippians 4:5-7 (Amplified Bible)

Let all men know and perceive and recognize your unselfishness (your considerateness, your forbearing spirit).

(Please forgive me Titus if I offended you with my soap box rant... Sola stepping down now )

Agape,
---
Sola Scriptura

"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To sherah:

You said:

Oh, I see. This not a clear-cut WT procedure for dealing with pedophiles.

You can't get any clearer than a statement by the Official Watchtower spokesman. Combine that with the Elders guidebook, BOE letters, Elder schools and plain common sense, Elders SHOULD be more than equipped to handle their duties.

The Problem with this assumption is:

1) Some Elders are LAZY.
I know some Elders who don't thoroughly read their guide books. They just go along with what ever the PO (now COBE) or senior Elders say. If I had a nickel for ever time I heard an Elder misquote their guidebook or BOE letters...

2) It's inherently difficult for men to deal with complex emotional situations with Love. (Not all men... but most). Most men prefer to either avoid the situation entirely or coldly handle it "By The Book".

3) Weeds are still among the Wheat (Matthew 13:24-30)
No matter how much we try to perfect procedure, there are going to be those who will simple not Love the flock. (Even at higher levels as RayFranz has courageously brought to our attention).

---
To truthseekeriam:

You Said:

I appreciate your kind manner

Thank you. I wish the words I type could truly reflect the pain I feel for the hurt my Brothers & Sisters have suffered over the years.

I finally realized they were only doing what they were told to do.

But I have forgiven them because they were put in a horrible position.

I ask this next question respectfully:
Did you come to this realization on your own? Or do you have concrete evidence that members at Bethel ordered your Elders to treat you this way?

If you do have Concrete evidence or names of Bethel members from the Service Desk that ordered your Elders to treat you this way, please pm the evidence. I can use it to continue my Quest to expose the Weeds at Bethel and beyond.

Sincerely,
Sola Scriptura
---
'A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it'

- Martin Luther

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To sherah:

J.R. Brown, Watchtower spokesman, is reported by the Associated Press on February 11, 2001 to have said: "...corroborating evidence can be used instead of a second witness to prove wrongdoing."

on page 111 of the Elder guide book it says "strong circumstantial evidence" could be considered.

(So victims, go to the police 1st. Get a conviction from Caesar. Then bring that to the Elders as your "strong circumstantial evidence". If that doesn't get them df'd then at least they will be tagged and bagged for the entire congregation to see.)

The Elder guide book also states that 2 separate witnesses of the same kind of wrong doing on separate occasions could stand together and accuse their perpetrator. (I personally know of a case where this worked perfectly to get a lying no good pedophile disfellowshipped.)

66

The two witness rule

by dgp in

suppose an active jehovah's witness sees a worldly person abusing a worldly child; for example, touching her genitals, and the witness goes to the police.

the worldly police will take action.. now, suppose the same jehovah's witness also sees a witness abusing a witness child in the same way, touching her genitals.

the witness knows he can't go to the elders because there are not two witnesses to the fact.. does the witness get to think that there is something very wrong about the two witnesses rule?

Sola Scriptura

To Titus:

Hello Brother!

I've been a lurker for quite a few years, but I’ve only had limited time to actually participate.

Agape

---
To GLTirebiter:

Awesome!

We need more Leaders (of ALL faiths) to follow the lead of Archbishop Chaput, and be more proactive in protecting Children.

---

To wobble:

You said:

(O.T verses carry no weight for the reasons I stated above)

The scripture at 2 Timothy 3:16 disagrees with your above statement.

While Christians are not under the "Mosaic Law", many of the underlying principles in the O.T. are encouraged to be used in the Modern Christian Congregation.

This is where discernment and willingness to be progressive about certain Congregation Policies come into play.

Paul showed in the following scripture, that the Two Witness Principle (not law), was not dead, and thus still carried weight in the new Christian Congregation.

2 Corinthians 13:1 (Amplified Bible):

“THIS IS the third time that I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses must any charge and every accusing statement be sustained and confirmed.”

Even though Child Abuse existed back in Christian Congregation, there is not one explicit scripture that details a procedure for handling it. So Modern Christian Leaders must, to the best of their ability, try to logically deduce what the congregation should do in these matters.

The JWs have chosen to apply the Two Witness Principle as a guiding force for all accusations of sin (no matter what the sin is). (Remember Child Abuse is both a Sin & a Crime).

Over time we have tweaked our policy to make it harder for lying no good predators to skirt the system. Since corroborating evidence (including police dna evidence, court conviction etc) can be used as the "2nd" witness", a lying child abuser can get DF'd on the basis of just the child’s testimony, if the Elders don't interfere with the Parents right & responsibility to have Caesar properly investigate the criminal side of the matter.

Elders, COs, DOs, GB etc, who do harass the victim and their family from going to the police, or make them feel guilty are unloving & simple not following our official established procedures. (Remember Weeds still exist among the Wheat).

To Contentious Lurking Elders:
Click here for more information on things YOU CAN do when your hands are tied from Dfing a slick lying Child Abuser who you FEEL is guilty.

To Lurking Elders Gone Wild™:
Please stop being LAZY and start shepherding the flock.

Shepherd
to guide or guard in the manner of a shepherd
---
Sola Scriptura

”We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel.
If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.”

WT April 1, 1920, p. 100, 101